Another solid discussion was held…. there was a request for the meeting ‘chat’ to be posted for further reference. We also include the Zoom Ai summary of the meet. Please keep in mind the next Roundtable will be Thurs June 4th, 530pm ET.
Meeting summary
Quick recap
The meeting focused on a roundtable discussion with Michael Hudson, where participants explored economic trends, debt dynamics, and the role of financial systems in shaping global power structures. Michael explained how debt tends to grow faster than the ability to pay, drawing on historical examples to argue that debt cancellation can stabilize economies. The group discussed China’s approach to monetary policy and its differences from Western systems, particularly regarding the creation and control of credit. They also examined the implications of the Epstein affair and its connections to global elite networks. The conversation concluded with an analysis of Oracle’s recent contracts and its significance in the context of U.S. tech dominance and Iran’s strategic objectives in the Middle East.
Debt, Rentiers, and Oil Markets
Michael discussed his research on debt and economic history, emphasizing that societies historically canceled debts to stabilize economies rather than allowing financial oligarchies to develop. He explained how economic rent, particularly in the form of unearned income from credit, land ownership, and monopolies, has disproportionately increased for the wealthiest 1% since 2008, while GDP growth has been driven by the rentier sector rather than productive economic activity. Karl Fitzgerald and Matt Connors engaged in a discussion about oil markets and sanctions, with Michael noting how strategic reserves and market manipulation efforts have limited effectiveness in controlling oil prices.
Oil and Currency Trade Strategies
Michael explained the complex dynamics of oil trade and the Trump administration’s strategy of releasing oil from the national security reserve to control prices, noting that this could actually benefit oil companies by enabling more exports of LNG. Karl Sanchez discussed China’s ambition to have the yuan achieve the status of a reserve currency, similar to the dollar, and Michael suggested that China could implement a dual exchange rate system to manage this transition without destabilizing its economy.
China’s Economic Credit Strategy
Michael explained China’s approach to currency and international investment, noting that China avoids allowing foreign banks to create credit in China and thus doesn’t face pressures to raise the exchange rate that could harm its exports. He discussed how China can issue its own bonds but prefers to create credit directly through government printing rather than relying on foreign borrowing, which he argued avoids speculative and unproductive uses of credit. The discussion concluded with Michael and Karl Sanchez exploring how wealth is created through asset price inflation rather than income savings, and how China’s economic strategy aligns with classical economic principles of reducing unnecessary production costs.
Oil Companies’ Tax Avoidance Strategies
Michael explained how oil companies historically avoided profits and taxes through complex accounting practices, including depletion allowances and offshore entities. He described how these companies could show cash flow without profits, and how offshore banking centers were used to avoid taxes. Karl noted that taxes like land taxes or windfall gains taxes are based on value rather than profits. Michael clarified the difference between price and value in economic theory, explaining that economic rent represents the gap between price and cost value, particularly in assets with no production costs like land.
Global Banking Systems: A Comparison
Michael explained the differences between the Chinese Central Bank and the US Federal Reserve, highlighting that while Western countries socialized public utilities but not banking, China created the People’s Bank of China to control money creation and direct credit towards local development and real estate. Karl Sanchez noted that Russia has a hybrid banking system where the central bank, Treasury, and Finance Ministry are interconnected, with two major banks, Sberbank and VEB, being majority government-owned and used for industrial financing.
Comparing Global Banking Systems
Michael explained the differences between savings banks and commercial banks, highlighting that savings banks only lend out money they have on deposit, unlike commercial banks that create credit. He discussed the financial systems in Russia and China, noting that both countries have high interest rates and lack a background in classical economics, which influences their approach to banking and infrastructure funding. Karl and Michael agreed that Russia and China have not fully embraced the principles of classical economic theory, leading to inefficiencies in their financial systems. Adam joined the discussion to ask about the role of taxation in American imperialism.
Tax Shifts and Market Dynamics
Michael discussed the concept of land rent and the historical shift in tax burdens from rentiers to labor and capital in the United States during the 1920s, coinciding with its emergence as a global hegemon. Adam inquired about this tax burden shift, and Michael attributed it to lobbying by rentier interests. Matt raised questions about the Irish potato famine and the stock market as a barometer of economic health, expressing concerns about capital flows and the potential for chaos and destruction as a means to artificially prop up markets.
Pension Fund Capitalism’s Economic Impact
Michael discussed the impact of pension fund capitalism on the American economy, explaining how it diverting labor retirement savings into the financial sector has distorted Western economies. He contrasted this with China’s approach of avoiding a financial market that prioritizes capital gains over industrial investment. Karl mentioned El Trumpo’s introduction of alternative asset investments in 401 retirement accounts, prompting Michael to elaborate on how this aligns with historical trends of using housing and real estate as means of financial fortune rather than for living. The discussion concluded with Steve Reed asking about MMT’s position on taxes, which Michael clarified, noting that while MMT simplifies its explanation of money creation, it does not address the broader economic implications beyond monetary theory.
Epstein’s Global Intelligence Network
The discussion focused on the Epstein scandal and its broader implications. Michael and Karl Fitzgerald explored the connections between Epstein, Israeli intelligence, and high-profile individuals, noting the extensive censorship surrounding the case. Karl Sanchez added that Epstein was an agent for the Rothschilds and likely worked with multiple intelligence agencies, using his connections for financial gain through insider dealing. The conversation concluded with a discussion of Epstein’s role as a “concierge” for the World Economic Forum’s elite, suggesting a global network of interconnected power structures that needs to be addressed.
Oracle’s Cloud Computing Strategic Moves
The meeting focused on discussing Oracle’s recent achievements in cloud computing and data hosting, including contracts with Medicare and the Air Force, as well as its upcoming media merger. Participants explored the implications of these developments on the separation of information technology from government control and the privatization of public information. The conversation also touched on Iran’s targeting of tech centers in the Middle East and its demands for the dismantling of economic relationships between Arab OPEC countries and the West. The discussion concluded with an overview of Iran’s objectives regarding American military bases in the region and the restructuring of international financial relationships.
Zoom Chat
08:33:48 From Steve Reed : Greetings all!!
08:41:14 From Matt Connors : I would love to read it in draft form
08:43:45 From Danny Weil : Under criminal capitalism the rentier class is just getting their ‘cut’.
08:46:35 From Konradt Sallam : Happy Birthday Michael Hudson🌇💐! Two days early but anyway☺️…
08:47:08 From Steve Reed : Yes, Happy Birthday Michael two days early!!!
08:55:41 From Derek Bridges : How effective was Jimmy Carter’s Windfall Profits Tax at controlling exploitation of that oil crisis? My goodness, how times have changed.
09:07:37 From Steve Reed : Which countries do not have or are not associated with debt-based central banks? Or which countries have sovereign-controlled monetary systems?
09:12:17 From Dena Lebowitz : How do the vast criminal enterprises such as human trafficking, prostitution, drugs etc fit into the world economy? It seems they are among the largest industries but they aren’t accounted for.
09:12:22 From Matt Connors : Does the waiving of the Jones Act have anything to do with this price manipulation?
09:12:39 From Matt Connors : Reacted to “How do the vast crim…” with 👍
09:12:46 From Matt Connors : Removed a 👍 reaction from “How do the vast crim…”
09:16:01 From Dena Lebowitz : From Myrtilla: Not sure if this is an on-topic enough question, or if you have already covered this, but:
I have a feeling China attempts to prevent domestic or foreign individuals and corporations from accumulating too much economic power / wealth. What policies do they have about this? Have they been successful?
09:16:23 From Dena Lebowitz : rom Myrtilla: Again, I hope this is on topic enough but
I’m seeking news sources that provide accurate info about what’s going on worldwide. Among others, I have found Soha (Vietnam) and Opera Mundi (Brazil).
Do you or other attendees have other news sources or websites you recommend? Thanks.
09:17:45 From Karl Sanchez : Replying to “rom Myrtilla: Again…”
Al-Mayadeen is one I follow for Lebanon and the wider region.
09:18:05 From Dena Lebowitz : Reacted to “rom Myrtilla: Again…” with 👍
09:18:12 From Dena Lebowitz : Removed a 👍 reaction from “rom Myrtilla: Again…”
09:18:24 From Dena Lebowitz : Reacted to “Al-Mayadeen is one I…” with 👍
09:18:46 From Matt Connors : Remind me how this chat transcript is available after this meeting is over, if it is at all.
09:19:41 From Dena Lebowitz : Replying to “Remind me how this c…”
go up to the 3 dots at the top right of the chat window
09:19:51 From Steve Reed : Is Russia a sovereign based system? The EU?
09:20:01 From Matt Connors : Reacted to “go up to the 3 dots …” with 👍
09:22:15 From Matt Connors : Chinese real estate troubles — 2nd homes, not primary residences, no?
09:31:48 From Matt Connors : Robert Heilbroner?
09:36:56 From Steve Reed : What is MMT’s position that taxes don’t go to paying for services the way we think about it? The MMT position I think says Tax money only goes toward the interest payments? Is that correct?
09:45:27 From Konradt Sallam : I also think the financialization of Pension Funds is a archetypical Willy Lynch tactic forcing wage earners to inflate Holding cost of their own children While complaining to the old that no one wants to work anymore a euphamism for my genarations Frustration with explosing living cost and starvation wages depriving us from Chances Boomers had
09:45:55 From Konradt Sallam : Inflate housing costs I mean
09:46:33 From Matt Connors : Reacted to “Inflate housing cost…” with 👍
09:46:42 From Matt Connors : Reacted to “I also think the fin…” with 👍
09:48:38 From Dena Lebowitz : From Myrtilla: correction of typo: the Vietnamese news outlet is “Soha” not “Soho”
09:53:56 From Steve Reed : And, if the Epstein situation is so protected and enwrapped in intelligence, then how/why did it come to light in the first place?
09:54:10 From Konradt Sallam : I find it quite interesting that you contribute to MMT by pointing out that when governments don‘t create Money Surplus the Economy needs private Banks create the Credit in a predatory way. So in Reality public Money creation seem to prevent asset Price Inflation and thus greedflation. I think you really nailed it to refer to monetarists like Milton Friedman as the Banking school.
09:55:07 From Matt Connors : Do we actually need to see the Epstein files to know how corrupt and evil our rulers are?
09:56:54 From Matt Connors : And do we think revelations will undo the system?
09:57:20 From Adam K : Whitney Webb has done great work too
09:58:20 From Dena Lebowitz : epstein in big international deals
09:59:45 From Steve Reed : There must be another word we can refer to them other than “elites?”
10:00:14 From Dena Lebowitz : “the billionaire class”?
10:00:22 From Steve Reed : Reacted to “”the billionaire cla…” with 👍
10:00:59 From Steve Reed : @Karl Fitzgerald @ Grounded Which podcast or resource about Oracle did you just reference?
10:01:08 From Dena Lebowitz : everyone needs a new social security number
10:01:45 From Steve Reed : Do we have enough time to get into Stablecoins?
10:02:42 From Karl Fitzgerald @ Grounded : the drey dossier
10:02:53 From Steve Reed : Reacted to “the drey dossier” with 👍
10:03:23 From Konradt Sallam : I guess Larry Summers (prince of darkness) needed some guilty luxery Epstein vibes along Bill Clinton as Inspiration for his austerity Budget cuts, budget surplus and deregulation policy. Summers deregulated for allocative efficieny as He Said himself inspired by his uncle Paul A Samuelsen and US Economy reached allocative optimum in 2008. Epstein‘s clients designed it deliberately along with their austerity policies which they probably coined in pleasure Island or while riding the Lolita express!
10:06:38 From Dena Lebowitz : From Myrtilla: The Drey Dossier – a lot of useful info. but i believe she is saying ?China is behind Oracle which is taking over our country? Or maybe she is saying Oracle has already taken over China?
10:07:08 From Karl Fitzgerald @ Grounded : Replying to “From Myrtilla: The …”
no its Izrael
10:07:19 From Karl Fitzgerald @ Grounded : Replying to “From Myrtilla: The …”
Zion
10:08:54 From Dena Lebowitz : Replying to “From Myrtilla: The …”
From Myrtilla: I’m not asking what the truth is, but what the line is that she – The Drey Dossier – is disseminating. But thanks. :-)
10:09:40 From Karl Fitzgerald @ Grounded : Replying to “From Myrtilla: The …”
she repeatedly says Z
10:09:56 From Steve Reed : I LOVE these discussions! Thank you Michael and thank you to all!!!
10:09:56 From Dena Lebowitz : Replying to “From Myrtilla: The …”
oh, ok. thx
Photo by Patrick Untersee on Unsplash
